Hi Everyone ^.^
I am a newbie so please forgive me if i have posted in the wrong forum-
Well ok- I purchased this 'Bulova' -Military Day & Night wrist watch- on ebay
I tried asking to seller about it but got no reply so as i don't know much about the -Day/night Avaition watch- i went ahead and bid and won it.
I would love to know more about it...
And especially if it's a -Original Military issue or NOS (New Old Stock) - or just a -Fake- ?
The moment is a 10AE
For same reason the pictures i uploaded are not formatting correctly.
Here is the link- (To View) http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-BULOVA-24-HOURS-DAY-NIGHT-DIAL-WATCH-with-O…
Hi there Geoff :)
I have a macbook and i am finding it tricking to upload any of the images.
I tryed to paste the image , it showed in the image preview window but then turned into programming format.
The only way i suppose is with the ebay link i added it has lots of detailed pics
Thanks so much
In reply to Hi there Geoff :) I have a by Private Squirrel
Perhaps it's not a .jpg file? I assume you're clicking the 'image' icon at the top of the window we type in, it's tricky......What I really meant by "add" it to the dB is to click 'add a watch' under the home link menu. Doing that creates a watch record in the dB instead of the forum were talking in.
These have been offered for sale by one or two different sellers for quite some time now. They are not issue watches, and the dials are custom made as I do not believe Bulova ever did them like this. The cases are NOS and un-issued, as I mentioned, fitted with a genuine Bulove movt in this instance. That said, the job looks very professional, but this is not a restored Military Bulova, and if memory serves we either called it non-conforming or Franken.
Hi Rob,
Thx you for your professional comments,
I totally understand and i have to admit i knew this had to be a frankenstein in the back of my mind, because for one the dial was far too new looking for my liking and without a speck of patina but as i am very new to the Bulova military wrist watch's but only because a made a comparsion on this very unsual avaition style wrist watch (link below)
But i think i found i accpetion to the fact :s a hard to fault Bulova military Version (But i don't see the moment!!!!) and now i the moment is ones of the biggest factors in the verification process but on this specialist website or to me it is :) this is what sparked my interest in the design and because of this version i went ahead too purchase the ebay one it is because the two look side by side in comparsion in every detail especially comparing the two dial's meticulousy carefully .
But that beg's the question- Since to my belief it is a non Military moment? But was 10AE ever a Military issue And is it capable to perform the 24 hour calibration moment? And since reading about the offical issue calibrated moment -10BNCH- after my purchase last week i know a lot more.
Here is the link- http://www.boomertime.com/6%20Round/R4384/R4384.htm
You bring up some good questions Private Squirrel. I believe that 1940 was the last year for the 10AE movement. Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the military watches were first issued during WWII which started in 1941. Does the hour hand on your watch only make one revolution in a 24 hour period? That would be one rare 10AE movement or it's had some re-engineering done on the gear train if it does.
In reply to You bring up some good by 1955mercury
All it would take is a 24 hour minute wheel and hour wheel. The cannon pinion drives the minute wheel and the hour wheel rotates by way of meshing with the minute wheel pinion. The minute hand rotates once per hour as normal, but the hour wheel is twice as slow as normal, rotating only once in 24 hours.
Having never examined a 24 hour Bulova in the metal, I can't say whether or not the hour wheel is larger or simply has more teeth and the minute wheel pinion fewer, but maybe someone who owns one can chime in?
I just looked at some of the other watches that seller has on ebay. He has these same military cases with 10AE, 10BM and 11AC movements in them with 24 hour dials. He also has military Elgins with 24 hour dials.
And Rev., since the drive gear on the minute wheel has to mesh with the hour wheel, it would require the drive wheel to be smaller and the minute wheel to be larger, don't you think?
In reply to I just looked at some of the by 1955mercury
In reply to I just looked at some of the by 1955mercury
The minute pinion meshes with the hour wheel. The minute wheel itself would remain the same, and the pinion would have fewer teeth, or the hour wheel has more, or a combination of the two. If the two meshing had smaller teeth, you might get away with using the same radius. I'm just speculating here, I'm trying to see if I can find a technical spec diagram for the 24 hour motion works.
The math says that the pinion revolves once per hour, meshing with the hour wheel to make it revolve once in 24 hours. The simple way would be to double the teeth on the hour wheel, which would of course make it larger. I suspect that to simply halve the teeth on the pinion would make for the wrong profile and meshing would be problematic. To make the teeth smaller would allow for the two to remain the same size, theoretically. I'm thinking in terms of production, would it have been easier to keep the dial side plate machining the same, whether it was for 12 or 24 hr dials? Or maybe this is a simple thing, and re-tooling for a 24 hour dial run is not a real production issue.
In reply to The minute pinion meshes with by Reverend Rob
It's the virtual circumference of the meshing gears that would determine the speed. That would be the circumference of the two meshing gears minus the amount the teeth mesh. It you think about it on a larger scale and you had a round wheel 6 inches in circumference driving a round wheel 36 inches in circumference, everytime the 6 inch wheel made 6 revolutions the 36 inch wheel would make 1 revolution. Hope that makes sense.
In reply to It's the virtual by 1955mercury
Sorry, I'm right off on my theory here. The minute pinion does not revolve once per hour, the Cannon pinion does.
The virtual circumference does make sense, it's always a factor of circ vs teeth, so a large wheel with small teeth meshes with the same size teeth on a smaller pinion. So either the wheel gets larger or the teeth get smaller, I suspect the former would be the most practicable. Since there is only one distance between the centres in the motion work, it stands to reason that making the hour wheel larger would mean there is no way the 12 hour milling would work, obvioulsy.
This is the formula from the WOSTEP textbook. Been awhile since I've even thought about it....
Now I'd be really interested to see an actual 24 hour 10BNCH. Anybody have an under dial pic?
In reply to Sorry, I'm right off on my by Reverend Rob
I would really like to see one also Rev. I've never come across any of the specialty parts that would be required to accomplish this function. But they must exist somewhere. I wouldn't think this seller could be making them himself and selling these watches for the prices he's getting.
Here's my cut. Bulova advertised the daylights out of their products. Radio, magazines and newspapers are FULL of ads, much to our delight. MIL-SPEC watches however had no reason to be advertised and are therefore, extremely difficult to validate, ID OR period date ( validate ).
We see internet sellers making claims that seem to be a tight stretch to reality. I find it curious that one seller has seemed to find the mother lode of old stock Bulova, Elgin and Hamilton "Military" watch cases. He's sold 12 of the Bulovas in the last 60 days. The photos seem to be of the actual watch he's selling as the movements appear to be different date codes in each listing. Some eBay sellers take one set of photos and sell dozens of watches using one photo shoot. To his credit he is not doing that. As I read his descriptions I find nothing misleading. He states the cases are either NOS or Original and makes no claims to the age or historical authenticity of the watches. I didn't see any MIL-SPEC information on any of the cases so they clearly are not Military issued watches, but he doesn't claim they are either. The seller, in my opinion is legit and honest, he is not representing his wares to be something they are not. He is not however, in my opinion, selling authentic, original, military issued watches. He has, to his credit, found a niche and is capitalizing on it in a big way. Congratulations to him (but I still wonder where all those cases come from)
I also doubt that all the components are original to each piece but that's probably true in many period watches as well. I'm sure that a certain percentage of my collection have replacement parts and maybe movements too. I KNOW that many of my watches have refinished dials because I paid to have them done. There are three types of collectors.
1. Dusty, rusty and all completely original - rode hard and put away wet, don't change or clean anything. If you can't authenticate it to 100% period original, I won't even consider it. I have a couple of these watches in my collection.
2. Restore it to it's original glory, some parts will need to be changed or refurbished and dials will be refinished and relumed. These watches are still authentic and original. I have MANY of these in my collection
3."OH, THAT'S COOL!! - I want that right now, I don't care if it's period, original or made of plastic, I like it and I want it - I actually have a couple of these in my collection as well (Tag Heuer)
All three collector types are legitimate, all three types command respect, Which type are you?
In reply to Here's my cut. Bulova by Geoff Baker
Hi Geoff
I was definitely [No3] on this franken :D
But this is the 24 hour military wrist watch for 999.99 or best offer i really liked but the price is off putting!
But is it Authentic?
*****ACTIVE EBAY ITEM REMOVED BY ADMIN*****
But i am kicking myself i bid once and got out bid and had no time to re-bid and it was to late on this one :( (link below)
In reply to Hi Geoff I was definitely by Private Squirrel
Seller of the first watch seems to be fairly confident that his watch is the real deal. As Geoff stated before Bulova didn't advertise these true military models so it's difficult for us to say what's real and what's not.
Look at it this way....
It's a great looking vintage Bulova watch....and you should wear it proudly regardless if it's 100% real or not.
The bottom line for me is....you are wearing an old Bulova watch and that's cold enough for me!
Enjoy it!
In reply to Seller of the first watch by mybulova_admin
Since you ask, Geoff, I'm 2 & 3, but I'm not really a collector. I look at a nice vintage watch like a nice vintage car. I try and keep it as original as possible, but sometimes you have to make minor concessions. The more Franken'd it gets the less I like it, actually. There is a point where it's no longer my father's axe, so to speak.
This is very interesting guys i have found a ebay day night military wrist watch and it looks exactly the same as the one i won about 2 weeks ago but mine in a 10AE moment.
This is where i should Not have bid and kept my self control
Because one main rule i have is- if a ebay seller does not reply to a question you have asked in regard to a item (Do not bid!) Especially as i am no expert on Aviation wrist watches :/
My question was- Does the inside of the back metal case have -Star Watch- stamped on it?
-Because i know it's samething to look for in regard's to Authenticity-
*****ACTIVE EBAY ITEM REMOVED BY ADMIN*****
Well this is the answer- No- (if when i get mine it will probably have the same strange Made in France letters stamped) This is actually another seller on ebay and the auction popped up just in the last 24 hours and it seems he sells Watches too.
Could the moment below (like mine but mine is a 10AE) be a reproduction?
In reply to This is interesting - and by Private Squirrel
I just found this ebay auction but it was ended early because of a error in the listing-
But still it's still very interesting because it looks legit that the same France made these case's for the U.S (and check out the original old cardboard cyclinder it's said they were used to delivered to ship them in )
Awesome news in regards in Authenticity! I hope it's true? Please let me know..........
There is absolutely no way on this Earth, that this watch is an original military watch. Neither did Bulova make, nor did the military order, a watch like this.
All known facts about these watches show them to be custom made, and there is a thread on MWR, the military watch collector's site, that talks this style over. The consensus is that they are frankens.
Totally bogus watch, but good fun nevertheless. Enjoy it but never think it is genuine.
The only movements used in Bulova military watches using this case are the 10AK, 10BM, and the10BNCH.
Squirrel - you have no way to have known but we don't allow links to active auction listings. It discourages sellers from promoting their own wares AND prevents members from bidding on items others are considering. We often realize, after the fact that we've bid against each other but most of us prefer to keep our cards close to our vest. We'll delete the active ones.
PS - We would still like you to photograph and add YOUR watch to our dB once you have it in hand.
In reply to Squirrel - you have no way to by Geoff Baker
In reply to I am sorry Geoff, I by Private Squirrel
This discussion wouldn't have been nearly as interesting if you hadn't posted the links Private Squirrel. That's how we found out there were so many different movements running in 24 hour format. It really stirred up my curiosity about these watches and I've never had much interest in the military Bulovas. I'm wondering now if there isn't a military service manual and parts list for these models out there somewhere.
It would be extremely expensive to make a reproduction of a Bulova movt, my guess is that these guys have found a source for NOS cases and some NOS movts, judging by the condition. Add a custom made dial and you have a Military style watch.
There are interesting write ups about Boimondau, a commune-style co-op watch case factory in Valence, France. It was realized in 1941, but various interruptions and arrests led to it going underground and the founder sent to several concentration camps. When Valence was liberated in 1944, the Founder, Monsieur Marcel Barbu, was released from the camp he was in and he returned to the factory and they re-started their social experiment, reaching full production again by the end of 1944.
Fascinating stuff.
"Boi"= from 'Boitier', a watch case
"Mon"= from 'Montre', a watch,
"Dau"= from 'Dauphine'
In reply to It would be extremely by Reverend Rob
Hey private squirrel....I bought the same watch about a year ago. I posted it and it was agreed by all to be a bully. it's the only bully I own, and I did feel duped,But.... it still was redone by a very talented watchmaker and remains one of the most talked about items in my collection. Enjoy wearing it! you will get a ton of comments which in my case has helped me spark an interest in or beloved bulova brand with people who had no appreciation previously!!!
In reply to Hey private squirrel....I by Richard Callamaras
The men and women on this site are a treasure trove of knowledge. They are also extremely kind and gracious in their knowledge and tirelessly dedicated. Good luck in your watch collecting and keep any and all bulova's coming. Every new watch helps us to understand the brand more clearly. Thank you for your contribution to our site.
Hi :)
1955mercury and Reverend Rob
(Just a update for you both)
A recieved my Bulova 24 hour wrist watch this week and have been wearing it and great news it keeps a 24 hour full rotation and perfect accurate time.
A real awesome watch.
And a big thank you for all your great replies.