the 'FRANKENBULLY' category.

I'm saddened to hear that, as you have been and are a major contributor here.  As things change, so can they change back.  IMO, your active presence here makes the site a more reliable source for all.  As admin and site users evaluate current "changes", I hope you change your mind about leaving too.

Ca'mon Mark what the hecks a matter with ya? What are ya gonna do just lurk around the site as a guest? Your hooked on this site just like the rest of us :) It's still the best vintage watch site on the net! Don't take your watches and go home! Who's the Plainsman gonna fight with. Seriously your a valued asset to the site and will be missed.

Bob

Not all changes are for the better, and these most recent changes serve to undo much of what has been accomplished through considerable time and effort on the part of a handful of dedicated members, without whose input and watch collections, the site would not have made it this far.

Until these most recent, unilateral changes to the site, we were working together to create something meaningful.  It has not always been a smooth process, but the goal was a common one--to recreate the record of vintage Bulova watches that had been lost.  However, these changes to the site make a mockery of that goal by, among other things, allowing any watch to be added to the database, no matter how obviously inauthentic, and by allowing anyone to vote on the authenticity of a watch, regardless of knowlege level or interest in the process.  The inevitable result of those changes is obvious and antithetical to the original goal.

Moreover, the fact that these changes were made by one person without consulting any other member of the site and, certainly, without even attempting a consensus, has sent a clear message to all of us, i.e., our opinions simply do not matter.  This site is not a collaboration, or a forum, or a joint effort.  It is the domain of one person, who, apparently, simply wants a fun, popular site rather than a serious effort to identify and document truth and facts. 

I think you cannot and should not blame any of us who have spent so many hours documenting and uploading watches, pouring over advertisements, studying database entries, and doing countless hours of research, for deciding that this site, with its new direction, is no longer worth the effort.

Like Fifth, this is my last post.  I have also removed my watches from the database so that their value will not be denigrated by thoughtless and unresearched "votes".

Best wishes to all who remain or move on, as they see fit.

- Lisa

Wow-   It would be a shame to loose all the hard work you folks have put into things so early in the changes.  I believe these recent changes, and all changes to date, reflect admin as custodian of the site "will", so to speak.  He made a decision based on what was happening at the time, and the best way to evaluate that decision is to implement and discuss.  It's only been a few days folks. 

Well now this is getting serious! Two valued members abandoning the site. Even though I don't particularly care for some of the new changes made, it is after all the admin's site. He's the one paying the freight! I have to respect that. You two have put in so much time and effort into the site, I would hate to see you leave it. If that is your decision then I have to respect your convictions as well. The place just won't be the same without you.

Bob

Fifth, Lisa, you can't change the system if you are not part of it. I don't agree with the rating system change nor the "Frankenbully" category but my opinion as a new member, with virtually no knowledge of Bulova, doesn't carry much weight.

Let me finish by saying, opinions are like a**holes. Everybody has one and they usually stink. If the knowledgeable leave then this place will STINK.

P.S.

Spellcheque is a lifesaver! Godd addition!

I don't know what to say...

Lisa & Mark were a big part of MyBulova...this is a sad day...

I personally think the "Frankenbully" catagory is a plus, the recently listed Diamond dial 1958 Bulova 23 is a prime example of one, and does not belong with the other "23's" listed in the database.

The panel had a purpose, the members of the panel were dedicated to this site and the correct ID of the Bulova brand, kind of the glue that holds this site together...as Lisa said, we collectively have all spent many hours studying ads, helping on ID's, presenting examples, and presenting our opinions, personal examples, & facts to help build this site to what it was...The #1 place to go to get info on Bulova watches.

While at times we disagreed with each other,  the debate that took place was constructive, and resulted in many positive ID's.

I would hope that the panel can be reinstated, and as new members join," get involved",  and learn the process on a proper ID, they too could be asked to become a panel member, the more points of view are a good thing, but unless you know what to look for and how to go about it, letting just anyone rate a watch ID will destroy any creditability this site has.

Admin, its your call, but don't be suprised that the help & support that this site has enjoyed in the past will diminish greatly with this change.

Greg

.

On the topic of the "Frankenbuly" category let me lay out my reasoning against it.

What detrmines the Model? The case, correct? It is either confirmed as a known model or not. If the case is a known Model "X", then we move on to the authenticity of the movement, dial, hands, etc. All points which go toward the star rating of the watch. If the case cannot be confirmed as a particular model then it should be classified as "Unknown".

Darren

(Descending from soapbox)

I am disappointed at the infighting as this is an excellent website and has proved invaluable in my watch collecting. I am based in England and many bulova watches are advertised here on ebay with limited information but by using this website I have been able to secure some ' rare ' watches. :-)

I have to say that I was surprised the site was closed without notice and I would also say that sometimes this site comes across as a club within a club , if you understand my meaning.

Please remember that the life blood of any institution are new members and they should be encouraged and not patronized.

cheers     terry

The term 'FRANKENBULLY' has too broad of a horizon to categorize.

IMO

After all, a 100% Bulova Watch showing an incorrect pair of Hands or custom colored Dial can be constituted as a 'FRANKENBULLY', the current early Watch database has plenty of examples.

eg: Williams' 'SKY KING' - this Watch does not deserve to be catalogued as a 'FRANKENBULLY', although it is, as its details do not match the Vintage advertisement 100%.

And, any Watch not meeting the criteria of what is a Bulova: Signed Case, Signed Movement, Signed Dial should not be permitted onto the site, negating any need for the sub-category.

Thank You for re-instating the 'panel' admin. Your database rating system will be far more consistant and helpful to Collectors both Young and Old now and in the future with the knowledgable at the helm....

2c

Although the term 'FRANKENBULLY' is cute Jay and We've all had a good giggle at some of the Watches fitting the bill, as both an avid Collector and restorer I don't feel it is an appropriate site category.

I'd venture to say that 80%+ of the current 'UNKNOWN's are 'FRANKENBULLY's.

List any unidentified Watch meeting the criteria of 'what is a Bulova' as 'UNKNOWN' and let time sort them out.

Thanks.

i think the person who owns the site has the right to change things whenever he sees fit..second anyone who picks up their toys and leaves because someone said something they didn't like they are being childish and not the adults they pretend they are...third everyone who comes here added to this site in one way or another...fourth there are times when people here made comments that are ignorant and rude, i try to pass this off as people being people..but alot of times that happens to new members posting a watch they have already or just bought and certain people sometimes tell them that there watch is shit in so many words...instead of just being quiet...so if certain people want to leave because the OWNER OF THE SITE decide that the panel wasn't working in the best interest of the site then so be it....it will leave the forum open to people aren't children and nice to new members and people...not always questioning and insulting somebody...just like yesterday.5th said why would somebody go through all that trouble for divers watch. well the answer is because they want to..he made it seem like it was a waste of time..just because he thought it was doesn't mean everyone thinks it is...nova i don't have anything to say about her...but 5 th and alot of othere act like they know everything always are correct and when you disagree you are a problem and don't belong..also like i said about the the real sky king i posted if a watch is slightly different then the ad there could be alot of reasons other than it being a franken, like the artist that did the ad took some liberities on the look of the watch..watches then like today have different options and looks but still have the same name...just like buying a car just because one car has a sunroof an one doesn't it is still the same model of car...just like when one watch has engraving on the top and bottom and one doesn't but its the same model and case its the same name different options...

So how are records/watches in unknown, which will never be known (based on admins/others points above and elsewhere) going to be cleaned up or addressed?  I'm talking about the very obvious ones.  Do we ignore them?  leave them in unknown if they are "a bulova case" which can currently be ID"ed or may be id'ed in future, a bulova mvnt (perhaps much diff in jewel count, if not the "more than two years apart" guideline),  and a Bulova signed dial of some sort which is not  period correct, let alone matching any ad on site?  

Just for logistics- it is much easier for one to look through unknows when those which will never be known are in a separate category.  Being in unknown for a while, IMO, applies they may become known at a later date.  If not a Frankenbully or some category, Is there a way we should deal with this "issue" beyond a "no stars" rating?

My choice to change the sky king to frankenbully was my attempt to interpret the new category and how it may be used or potentially misused, so we could discuss right away.  I guess I was playing devils advocate, because I did "know" the intent of an ID change and this should have been one of the * exceptions to the guidelines.  However intent vs guidelines is a grey area- especially if anyone can rate, change, implement things based on their interpretation.

Personally, while I feel we need to consider all users opinions and foster discussion, there needs to be a governing body- if you will- the panel members, who have the authority by consensus, to eventually make changes to anyone's ID's based on their expert opinions and the facts as they exist at the time.  This is actually a swing in the opposite direction of the recent changes, and would need to be implemented with great care and after much discussion, but IMO incorrect records should be "changed" to reflect the best "truth" at the time.  When a record is ID'ed as one model by consensus of panel, and the owner of that record does not, for what ever reason, change the ID to be in agreement w/ that concensus, there is conflicting information on site, and it negatively impacts the site (and the goals of the site) for this misinformation to remain in the present format. 

These records may be the exception, but they exist, and IMO these exceptions/outliers warrant discussion.

This is a lot to digest at one time.  I'll start a topic with some questions on how the panel works in a seperate forum post.

far too grey of an area.

EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN FIFTH...anyway your own panel memeber disagreed with you on that anyway..i don't understand why it is hard to understand that theses watches came with different options...its it really that crazy that a watch with the same name and case can be alittle different than the ad or another watch..they were trying to save money in the ads by not showing all the different options that you could get,plus they were hand drawn..just like in todays ads they don't show every watch in every color,why would they do it back then.now sometimes i agree and i do take advice especially from the Rev but just because a certain watch isn't in the ad they way you see it in a post doesnt make it a frankenbully...to think otherwise is being pigheaded

You were there?

It has been shown time and time again that Case and Dial variants can be named differently than a similar Model depicted in the Vintage ads, particularly in the 1920's - '30's.

In the 'SKY KING' instance close isn't cutting it as the story of how the similarly Cased Watch wound up in a 'SKY KING' box has been disclosed by the individual who placed it there.

i am not talking about this sky king ..i was talking about mine.. i thought i said that in the first post..and just because some might change in name doesn't mean all do...i don't know why no one can understand the car analogy...for an example i have a gladiator that doesn't have the two tone case but it is still a gladiator mine even has the same engravings as one with the white and yellow gold..so are you going to tell me that my gladiator has a different name,even though it is exactly the same as one with the yellow gold?

No, I'm not.

Early 1930's Models such as the 'SENATOR' and others are adverised as being available in Natural Gold (Yellow), White or a combination of both. The Case design and engraving matches the advertised 'GLADIATOR' as does the jewel count of the Movement. IMO it's the 'GLADIATOR'.

However the "variant" 'SKY KING's Cases in the database do not match the ad and the story of how the ID came to be has been told in an IHC thread, as mentioned above.

So are We discussing Apples, or Oranges?

we are talking about any model thats different only slightly from the ad or a watch doesn't mean the name changes... 

That would depend on the Watch, this is where knowledge of the Brand and experience in Collecting comes into play.

eg: 1940's 'SENATOR', 'DRAKE', 'RADIO CITY' & 'BLACKOUT'.

There are others.

Q: Is the Watch below a 'PRESIDENT', an 'UNKNOWN' or a 'FRANKENBULLY'?

A: 'FRANKENBULLY'

Why? The Dial is incorrect for 1941 - this style does not appear until 1948, the Black Modern style Hands are incorrect when combined with the Hashmark Hour markers and Bulova never signed their Dials as 17 Jewels directly above the Seconds register.

How do I know this?  - I've been Collecting and restoring Vintage Bulovas for a long time.

There is so much here to digest, it gives me a stomach ache. The "Frankenbully" category should never have been created in the first place (and the search tool defaults to "Frankenbully" as a model to make matters worse!). I agree that "Unknown" was fine. Watchmakers used what they had to fix watches and changes were made to watches. I'm all for Originality and Authenticity but it has become an elusive goal. No one on the site, panel member or otherwise, can claim to to the sole expert on all models. I have seen odd variants in the Spanish and Canadian Bulova ads. So, keep it together fellow members! Make an oddity an "unknown" and keep up the good work. Try not to be overly exact and frustrated over identification because I doubt there was ever an exact and precise model production at Bulova or any watch company. There were certainly nuances created to use up parts inventory. For instance, I have a Seiko Lasalle Quartz. I paid $700 for it in 1982. In fixing it I found the exact same movement, dial and case for it in a Seiko Quartz watch I bought for under $10! The only difference? The dial didn't say "Lasalle" on it! Big difference in re-sell and value - but no difference in quality of the movement or watch. Keep it in mind.

when i think of a  franken i think of a bulova movement in a aftermarket case and dial... ...if the dial movement and case are a bulova and its a president case then its a president with a different dial..watch hands are very rarely original and if something had different hands i would not say that is a frankenbully just because of that..as we all know original cathedral hands are hard to come by...but i am not even really talking about that  i was talking more about slight changes in known watches that doesn't change the name of a watch...

Ellie,

To Name the example shown above a 'PRESIDENT' would be mis-leading, a mis-representation. 

The Watch consists of a Bulova 'PRESIDENT' Case, a 21 Jewel 7 linge Bulova Movement (ala President) and a Bulova signed Dial.

Although signed the Dial is not Bulova and the Hands are not original to the piece, therefore it becomes a 'FRANKENBULLY'

....and this is why the category should not exist, opinions differ for various reasons on what a 'FRANKENBULLY' is.

IMO the 1920's Watches showing Hands that are not original to the piece are 'FRANKENBULLY's

Why?

Because the Watch did not / could not have been manufactured that way - it has been changed.

There are 'FRNKENBULLY's that are blatently obvious, then there are the ones not so obvious - Watches pieced together using spare parts that are compatble.

It may be all Bulova but it's not genuine Bulova.....

i don't feel that the hands not being factory makes in a frankenbully...there is far too many watches that are original except for the hands..to say a watch that is perfect except for the hands is a franken watch..that doesn't make sense ...i can see the wrong dial, the wrong movement for the year, i can see a aftermarket case and or dial..but not the hands...and for saying that the hands make it a frankenbully sounds elitest and stuck up...not to forget that there is a grading scale for vintage watches and all antiques..ie if a watch is perfect except for the hands it just goes down a point from say 10 to a 9...it doesn't change what the watch's name or anything else..it is just all factory..not a frakenwatch.. like i said and for the last time i franken is a watch that is put together using whatever parts are around and or using aftermarket or using a benrus case and a bulova movement..i would even say that i movement from a 30's in a 29 case isn't a franken either...its just not complete factory and it would go down a point in the grading scale but doesn't change the name or what the watch is...btw you and jay must have a hidden source for correct hands..i asked jay once he couldn't tell me where he gets all this hands for his watches on his site..unless he just uses the same ones over and over for each picture...because i try all the material house for correct hands and come up short..

How hard would it be to create a rating system that grades each component of the watch and those ratings are averaged for an overall rating?

0 stars = definitely not, 1 star = maybe not, 2 stars = maybe so, 3 stars = confirmed

The ratings would be applied to the Case, Dial, Hands, Movement, Band/Bracelet

Darren (Not of the K.I.S.S. ilk)

thank you.atleast someone agrees with me...any watch collector book has the same grading 10-1 scale 10 being mint w/box and papers and 1 being far below average,with everything inbetween...

If I had a watch with A style of hands and replaced them with new ones of the same model does that put in the Frankenbully   category?

The star rating of the watches on this site is related to the proper ID or name of that watch, not the condition, which is something entirely different.

A watch with a Bulova dial & movement, but not a Bulova case will never be a factory made Bulova...it a Frankenbully and you will never find an ad for it because it never existed.

A 1946 President case with a 17J Bulova movement and Bulova dial also will never be a factory made Bulova...its a 100% Bulova Frankenbully and you will never find an ad for it either, because it also never existed.

A Unknown watch is one that has all of the footprints of being a factory made Bulova watch...when comparing it to others made in the same era, and slow but sure we are finding some of them.

The Academy Award series is a prime example...at first it was only thought that a true AA had to have a curtain dial, but as ad's were discovered, and crystal listings were compared, the curtain dial only theory was dismissed and the X dial was accepted, and as time goes on, I would bet that plain white dials will appear in ad's also for the men's.

Stephen, Panel, all other Members and quests. Here are my opininions of late,

Get rid of the "Franken bully" category all together. It does not belong here, it is and has been a slang term used for a mix of none Bulova case with a Bulova movement, period . It is and never will be a 100 % authentic Bulova watch and will never get an ID.  Ticker has just said it all, once again, very well said. These watches should not be entered as "unknown" and they will remain as such because no one can say who or when they changed the case! Give it up folks, after the late 20's Bulova usually stamped the case backs, inside and outside. We also know that older pre 30's we're sometimes stamped between the lugs B- 10K rgp or B-10K ROLLED GOLD PLATE and did not get stamped Bulova inside the case but are authentic Bulova cases.

Admin, I will again ask, this time publicly, as I have requested privately, please remove the "Frankenbullie" category altogether. Can't you see the confusion and frustration this is already creating!?

Please note, I have already "Flagged" this comment for Admin's review.

Good discussion.  Unkinown catagory implies "unknown yet".   Some unknown's will never be known, not because we are waiting on an ad, but because they are cobbled.  It sounds rediculous, but the President above may be better clasified as "bulova hybrid" maybe? It's misleading to be called a one or two star President.  Being a Frankenbully is not derogatory.  It's not insulting. It's a potential catagory for a class of watches.  What are some options?

Hi Will,

To some extent we will agree, Unknown's such as the Bulova Fifth has shown in this post, clearly a President case, no movement data , no ad data to support any claims... but Mark is trying to make a valid point here. We have what we know looks like a President case, a stainless back unmarked will invalidate that. The dial is not confirmed in that case,( maybe can be confirmed) at a later date if the case is substantiated with pictures and data, and if we find an ad and if it get's submitted as a President. Case, dial, hands, fonts, etc are all used to decide. As panel members, with our years of observation and knowledge of what we have seen, been experienced with and held in our hands we can give our opinions on dial changes, hand changes, colour changes, etc. I would give Fifth's President 3 stars for a fully documented bulova case, movement dated to period, and the dial variant could lead us to a "letter" designation as we well know several variants were made. If he were to call it a President F, then I would say "No" no vote as we have ads that would invalidate that kind of claim. Believe me, If Mark Id's a watch, he's done his research.

.

The only 2 options for the Frankenbullys is...

1. Put it in the Frankenbully category as a reference for both the panel and other members on what to look for.

2. As soon as a watch is known to be a Frankenbully, delete it from the site.

The latter would probably upset the member that posted it, and I think that that is not what Admin. wants. I see the category as a training tool for new members on what to look for when collecting these old Bulova's.

Getting to picky about wrong hands,  bands, or color of the lume is taking the star rating too far, remember, the object is to ID these watches with the correct name or model.

There will be some exceptions such as case color, or using the Craftsman/Tuxedo as an example where the band will make a difference on what it is called, but that is usually stated in the ad's.

Ok here We go.

1. I don't think a Frankenbully should be included in the database.

2. If a watch is deemed a Frankenbully by The Panel Members it should be deleted from the site.

I think we have enough unknowns already so listing the FB's as unknowns will only make things worse.

Well that's my2c.